Oh boy, fic'kin (i.e. crazy) stuff!
Oct. 22nd, 2010 10:38 amI've been listening to a lot of Aphex Twin lately. He's incredibly talented and his stuff is just too awesome. "Come To Daddy" has to be the most epic song/video ever. Freaky ass shit, but so awesome.
Ugh, going to bed at 4am and then getting up at 8am... what are you doing to yourself, Jai? :P
Aaanyway, I kinda wanted to talk about myself in this entry. Yet even given that this is my journal, I can't help feeling like that's a selfish thing. I'll stick it under a cut, but I just really want to talk about who and what I am. I think maybe it helps me to figure myself out too. So, uh, usual disclaimer time.
Disclaimer: Under this cut is the usual weirdness. Fic'kin/Otakukin rambling, whack theories, self-analysis, etc. The works. Enjoy my crazy and please don't certify me XD;
I think my main reason for wanting to write this particular post is because I've talked so much recently about other facets to myself (read: Miles) that it's almost like I've forgotten my own identity in the process. I haven't talked about that in a long time, and I suppose it's not something I talk about a lot anyway because it really isn't all that important. But yes, I do still 'believe' that I'm Tails, or at least a version of him. Fic'kin, by definition, hold the belief that they are (or were) a fictional character, either reborn into this life or transferred here somehow.
I could say that I don't talk about my weird belief because of the natural stigma attached to such a crazy and outlandish statement as "Hey, I'm actually Tails from the Sonic the Hedgehog universe! Hi!" >_>; You only have to go as far as that before people are arching a brow and taking a step backwards, and really who can blame them? If I was someone else, I wouldn't believe me either and I'd probably think myself completely arrogant as well as insane. The 'insane' part doesn't bother me too much, but the last thing on Earth that I want people to think of me is that I'm arrogant because of how I feel.
Thing is, I don't feel that I'm specifically THE Tails, the one and only, or even that I'm a specific 'Tails' from any one 'verse (games, Archie, SatAM etc). Gosh, if I had to live up to that I think I would die. I don't feel like I'm the authority on 'Tails' as a character, either. I would never be the type of 'kin who's all "Argh, the media for me is ALL WRONG! THIS is how it actually happened!". That's retarded. The media is the media for the fandom. It's the authority on the characters it portrays. Those ARE the characters, and anything I claim to be is an aside. People are fans of the media, not the 'kin. That's part of why I don't normally parade it about, because as far as I'm concerned, me being Tails is important and relevant really only to myself (and to my Sonic).
Yet I'm blabbing about it here, why? I guess because it IS important to me, even if to no one else. It's still something I deeply identify with and forms a great part of who I am. In the end, it doesn't matter to me if people believe me or not as long as I'm true to myself and not trying to be something that I'm not. That's why I make an effort not to sound like I'm trying too hard to sound like, or act like, Tails. I may be the most OoC Tails ever, but really that's fine, good even. I'm just me, and I'm shaped by far more than one past lifetime, even if I'm also influenced by it. Here, I am a person known as Jai who is the combination of many parts and experiences. That's all.
I'd be lying, of course, if I didn't hope that at least a few people believe/understand me. And I'd be lying if I said that I'm not always hopeful that I'll run into other Sonic'verse 'kin. I've known (and do actually know currently) a few Sonic'verse fic'kin, which is awesome, but they're never from my exact verse. Mostly they relate most to the games, whereas I seem to have a closer affinity to the American media, specifically the cartoons and comic, as well as a fair bit of 'AU'. It would be nice to meet other 'kin from at least a similar 'verse. I'm not the type of 'kin to pine over a past life, but I do miss certain people. Particularly I'd love to meet a Sally, Knuckles, Bunnie or Rotor. Heck, even an Antoine or, gakk, an Amy XD Much as I'm always ripping on her, I feel like Amy and I were good friends. But Sally and Knuckles are the two I feel I was closest to after Sonic.
But it's not like I'll die or live in eternal depression if I don't meet anyone else. I'm lucky enough to have my Sonic here. I think most 'kin aren't so lucky as to have their best friend with them in another life, and even if it took the best part of ten years to accomplish it from opposite sides of the globe (well, different continents anyway), we made it work and live together now (: That in itself is a little miracle.
And then there's Miles. My theory about him is that he's, quite literally, the other half of me. He doesn't like that, of course. I reckon he's the yin to my yang and the dark to my light... but not necessarily the evil to my good, because I don't really believe in linear binary definitions of morality. My gut feeling is that we were once one spirit that got fractured down the middle and split off into two separate lifetimes - Tails and Miles. Somehow we got slapped back together here, but it took me a long time to even recognise my spiritual twin is back x.o;;
Duality has been a major theme all my life. The yin-yang has always held meaning for me and called to me in a strange way. Light in darkness and darkness in light. I think that's important. It's not so simple as black and white or positive and negative. There's a speck of each in the other, binding them and preventing each from being completely one aspect alone. I know that as Tails, I wasn't 100% perfect and good. My moral compass may have been set to 'good', but I was capable of being less than perfectly sweet and innocent. In the same vein, I can't believe that Miles is nothing but pure evil (sorry pal). His moral compass may be flipped and he's certainly far from 'good', but he has his redeemable qualities. It's never so simple as 'good' and 'bad'.
I wasn't sure what he was at first. He scared me; I really thought he was some sort of demon at first from how strongly and suddenly he came on, influencing my thoughts and dreams with a level of darkness and morbidity that I didn't understand and was a little afraid of. Then I went down the whole 'soulbond' route, that he's a completely separate entity that somehow became bound to me from another 'verse. And while that may still technically be accurate, I've come to accept that he's also me, or at least, part of me that splintered off lifetimes ago. So yeah, that's that. I don't know if we'll ever integrate again or if that's even possible (and I'm sure he'd fight it all the way), but this is a start I suppose.
I feel like I have so much more to say, yet I also feel like I'm done. I guess this came to a natural close. Anything more is for another post. Sorry, again, for my crazy :P
Ugh, going to bed at 4am and then getting up at 8am... what are you doing to yourself, Jai? :P
Aaanyway, I kinda wanted to talk about myself in this entry. Yet even given that this is my journal, I can't help feeling like that's a selfish thing. I'll stick it under a cut, but I just really want to talk about who and what I am. I think maybe it helps me to figure myself out too. So, uh, usual disclaimer time.
Disclaimer: Under this cut is the usual weirdness. Fic'kin/Otakukin rambling, whack theories, self-analysis, etc. The works. Enjoy my crazy and please don't certify me XD;
I think my main reason for wanting to write this particular post is because I've talked so much recently about other facets to myself (read: Miles) that it's almost like I've forgotten my own identity in the process. I haven't talked about that in a long time, and I suppose it's not something I talk about a lot anyway because it really isn't all that important. But yes, I do still 'believe' that I'm Tails, or at least a version of him. Fic'kin, by definition, hold the belief that they are (or were) a fictional character, either reborn into this life or transferred here somehow.
I could say that I don't talk about my weird belief because of the natural stigma attached to such a crazy and outlandish statement as "Hey, I'm actually Tails from the Sonic the Hedgehog universe! Hi!" >_>; You only have to go as far as that before people are arching a brow and taking a step backwards, and really who can blame them? If I was someone else, I wouldn't believe me either and I'd probably think myself completely arrogant as well as insane. The 'insane' part doesn't bother me too much, but the last thing on Earth that I want people to think of me is that I'm arrogant because of how I feel.
Thing is, I don't feel that I'm specifically THE Tails, the one and only, or even that I'm a specific 'Tails' from any one 'verse (games, Archie, SatAM etc). Gosh, if I had to live up to that I think I would die. I don't feel like I'm the authority on 'Tails' as a character, either. I would never be the type of 'kin who's all "Argh, the media for me is ALL WRONG! THIS is how it actually happened!". That's retarded. The media is the media for the fandom. It's the authority on the characters it portrays. Those ARE the characters, and anything I claim to be is an aside. People are fans of the media, not the 'kin. That's part of why I don't normally parade it about, because as far as I'm concerned, me being Tails is important and relevant really only to myself (and to my Sonic).
Yet I'm blabbing about it here, why? I guess because it IS important to me, even if to no one else. It's still something I deeply identify with and forms a great part of who I am. In the end, it doesn't matter to me if people believe me or not as long as I'm true to myself and not trying to be something that I'm not. That's why I make an effort not to sound like I'm trying too hard to sound like, or act like, Tails. I may be the most OoC Tails ever, but really that's fine, good even. I'm just me, and I'm shaped by far more than one past lifetime, even if I'm also influenced by it. Here, I am a person known as Jai who is the combination of many parts and experiences. That's all.
I'd be lying, of course, if I didn't hope that at least a few people believe/understand me. And I'd be lying if I said that I'm not always hopeful that I'll run into other Sonic'verse 'kin. I've known (and do actually know currently) a few Sonic'verse fic'kin, which is awesome, but they're never from my exact verse. Mostly they relate most to the games, whereas I seem to have a closer affinity to the American media, specifically the cartoons and comic, as well as a fair bit of 'AU'. It would be nice to meet other 'kin from at least a similar 'verse. I'm not the type of 'kin to pine over a past life, but I do miss certain people. Particularly I'd love to meet a Sally, Knuckles, Bunnie or Rotor. Heck, even an Antoine or, gakk, an Amy XD Much as I'm always ripping on her, I feel like Amy and I were good friends. But Sally and Knuckles are the two I feel I was closest to after Sonic.
But it's not like I'll die or live in eternal depression if I don't meet anyone else. I'm lucky enough to have my Sonic here. I think most 'kin aren't so lucky as to have their best friend with them in another life, and even if it took the best part of ten years to accomplish it from opposite sides of the globe (well, different continents anyway), we made it work and live together now (: That in itself is a little miracle.
And then there's Miles. My theory about him is that he's, quite literally, the other half of me. He doesn't like that, of course. I reckon he's the yin to my yang and the dark to my light... but not necessarily the evil to my good, because I don't really believe in linear binary definitions of morality. My gut feeling is that we were once one spirit that got fractured down the middle and split off into two separate lifetimes - Tails and Miles. Somehow we got slapped back together here, but it took me a long time to even recognise my spiritual twin is back x.o;;
Duality has been a major theme all my life. The yin-yang has always held meaning for me and called to me in a strange way. Light in darkness and darkness in light. I think that's important. It's not so simple as black and white or positive and negative. There's a speck of each in the other, binding them and preventing each from being completely one aspect alone. I know that as Tails, I wasn't 100% perfect and good. My moral compass may have been set to 'good', but I was capable of being less than perfectly sweet and innocent. In the same vein, I can't believe that Miles is nothing but pure evil (sorry pal). His moral compass may be flipped and he's certainly far from 'good', but he has his redeemable qualities. It's never so simple as 'good' and 'bad'.
I wasn't sure what he was at first. He scared me; I really thought he was some sort of demon at first from how strongly and suddenly he came on, influencing my thoughts and dreams with a level of darkness and morbidity that I didn't understand and was a little afraid of. Then I went down the whole 'soulbond' route, that he's a completely separate entity that somehow became bound to me from another 'verse. And while that may still technically be accurate, I've come to accept that he's also me, or at least, part of me that splintered off lifetimes ago. So yeah, that's that. I don't know if we'll ever integrate again or if that's even possible (and I'm sure he'd fight it all the way), but this is a start I suppose.
I feel like I have so much more to say, yet I also feel like I'm done. I guess this came to a natural close. Anything more is for another post. Sorry, again, for my crazy :P
Because meowing cats are keeping me up at 4am. :P
Date: 2010-10-22 11:36 am (UTC)Headpeople/whatchamacallits can be unbelievably intense, like that. You're never quite prepared for just how much they can overpower you, how real it is. Not necessarily in the sense of objectively-verifiable-real, just in the sense of how much it affects you, impacts your life, even when it feels like you "should" be able to turn it off.
I would never be the type of 'kin who's all "Argh, the media for me is ALL WRONG! THIS is how it actually happened!". That's retarded.
I tend to think most people who say this mean it in the sense of "wrong for me". As in, "hey, don't assume that I'm 100% like this! If you do, you're getting me wrong, because I'm actually like this other thing!" Or at least that's what the soulbond-types in here have meant by it, when they've felt/said something like that-- not that the media is wrong for telling the story it tells, but simply that it doesn't tell their story. And sometimes it's hard to put that into words, especially when people are younger and less articulate and stuff.
--but yeah, not down with "my perception of it is the only right perception". Even though I can understand how it's really easy to feel that.
Now I miss my cat ;_;
Date: 2010-10-22 12:02 pm (UTC)I think what stunned me was how sudden it was. I can pinpoint the exact moment he made himself known. I was in the middle of an RP session with Jei and we were playing Scourge and Miles. We'd already done a couple of previous RPs with them before, and this one was actually far more benign than the last. I was typing a post and right in the middle of it I suddenly got the overwhelming feeling of "DON'T YOU DARE POST THAT" and this sense of overpowering anger directed at me for what I was writing. I just kinda stopped mid-sentence and told Jei "I can't continue." I didn't tell her why for several days and I just felt sick and weird and not at all right and like I was going crazy. And you pretty much know the story from what I've chronicled since then. But yeah, it was just so sudden, like someone coming up to me silently from behind and suddenly grabbing me in a headlock with a knife to my throat. Intense hatred and anger over what I was doing/saying. I think we're a little more chill now, but it scared the bajeezus outta me at the time ^^;
>>I tend to think most people who say this mean it in the sense of "wrong for me". As in, "hey, don't assume that I'm 100% like this! If you do, you're getting me wrong, because I'm actually like this other thing!" Or at least that's what the soulbond-types in here have meant by it, when they've felt/said something like that-- not that the media is wrong for telling the story it tells, but simply that it doesn't tell their story. And sometimes it's hard to put that into words, especially when people are younger and less articulate and stuff.
--but yeah, not down with "my perception of it is the only right perception". Even though I can understand how it's really easy to feel that.
That's basically what I'm trying to say. I just get irked by 'kin who seem to feel that 'their' media is specifically about them, the one true instance of that character, and that the writers/artists etc are maliciously warping them or are stupid for telling the story wrong. No one owns a story, and a piece of fictional media can't be 'wrong', because it is fiction. It may have factual counterparts, but unless someone walked right out of an acetate cel sheet, I don't feel they can complain that the creators are 'wrong'. I find it arrogant to say "This was based directly on me and you should get it right!".
But saying "I am different from this version/likeness of me" is fine and I do that all the time. I'm nothing like any of the 'canon' versions of Tails. But that doesn't make them WRONG. They just tell a different story with a different idea of who 'Tails' is.
If I came off as annoyed, it was directed at a select few who seem to actually feel that the creators of 'their' media should change what they made to accommodate how they (the 'kin) feel things happened to the point of ranting and raving all "How DARE they! They're lying about me!" etc.
I guess I just feel that no 'kin is the exact character in any piece of media, no matter how close, because that media is still a piece of art. A portrait is not a photograph is not a living breathing person, and I think most media is further removed than a portrait or a photograph.
In particular, your quote "[N]ot that the media is wrong for telling the story that it tells [...]" sums it up. My little rant was aimed squarely at those who go as far as to say that YES the media is wrong to tell that story instead of their own, rather than those who quite rightfully just wanna emphasize that their story is different from the media's idea.
Sorry for any misunderstanding ^^;
D:
Date: 2010-10-24 01:58 am (UTC)This kind of feeling-- though less angry and more insistent, a no you should not do that it would be a bad idea if you do that-- is how I communicate with my guide-entity/deity/IDEK what to call her, most of the time. It's probably very startling, if you're not used to it. (Have had it all my life, so I sort of am.)
And oh, I don't think it was a misunderstanding; I think I knew what you were getting at. I think I just wanted to provide some clarity on people who get angry and irked and whiny about it. Because while it's annoying, I think if you look at stuff like this you can often see where people are coming from, and while that may not make them right, or make it a good thing for them to say what they say... hmm, I guess I'm just all for seeing it from their point of view. And going, "well, I don't agree with that, but I get why they say it".
Like, with the "how dare they, they're lying!", I think that's an expression of the gut feeling they have: this feels like mt story, but the details are all wrong! I feel like someone is lying about me! And I can understanding having the emotional reaction of "they're lying!", and saying that, without really thinking about how silly that is. (And then maybe some of them do get told, but they get all defensive and start defending the idea just because someone attacked their position. I've known a lot of people do that: defend something they said in a kneejerk way, that they didn't really believe, just because they didn't want to be wrong.)
It's all a bit foolish, but people are foolish. Me included, often. So I like to try and see where people are coming from when they do and say foolish things, because it's often understandable even if it's wrong. So yeah, I wasn't disagreeing with you or thinking that media 'kin have a right to order the media creators around: they don't at all. But I do see why, emotionally, they feel like they're seeing a "lie".
So basically, it's like, you find it arrogant-- I just sort of feel sorry for them being a bit less clued-in and not able to separate what they actually think is right from what they're feeling. We both think they're wrong, I was just exploring the whys. :)
Re: D:
Date: 2010-10-24 10:00 am (UTC)It certainly was startling having emotions that quite distinctly weren't my own suddenly bombarding me from inside my own head x.o Miles is incredibly strong-willed and makes his opinion known VERY clearly, and sometimes that's difficult to live with. It makes it hard for me to do certain things that I really want to do. For example, there's this picture in my mind that I really wanna draw... it's been in my head for months and I feel like it's meaningful in some small way. Miles knows what it is and he will absolutely NOT let me draw it. He hates the idea and he's not shy of saying so. When he's mad at me, it's relentless. Last night he spent a good long while showing me in graphic detail exactly how he would like to mutilate and dismember me, while I was trying to get to sleep n.n;; He's just charming that way and he doesn't seem to have an 'off' switch :P Guess I just have to learn to live with it.
And thank you for explaining what you meant more clearly. I can definitely see where you're coming from. I suppose it depends on the individual, too. Some people are more arrogant than others, but in the end perhaps the most arrogant and prideful are in fact simply just lost and confused and trying to find sense in things that are only half-there. I can imagine that's frustrating, finding something so close to how you feel yet somehow 'wrong'.
I think one reason that I personally get so defensive is because my partner is an artist who creates worlds and I have such deep respect for creators of fiction that I hate to see them attacked over the beautiful things they've designed. I believe in the right for all versions of everything to exist and be equally valid and I hate the idea that artists and writers are just 'mind-slaves' who are employed by the universe to put into writing/art someone's world. I like to believe that they truly are creators and not just visionaries being fed a stream to interpret. I know that jams with the idea of 'kin, but I can't allow myself to accept that artists and writers etc aren't truly creative. I prefer to subscribe to an infinite worlds theory, or one in which something exists BECAUSE it was created by an artist and thus became part of the universal consciousness and became actualised and multiplied by all of the minds who are triggered by it.
I dunno. But you are very right... I should try to understand the 'why' behind the way certain 'kin act and not be so condemning. I suppose the way I feel is my own personal arrogance (;
Re: Because meowing cats are keeping me up at 4am. :P
Date: 2010-10-24 05:57 am (UTC)Indeed..that's the scariest part if you ask me..
I'm glad you don't see it as black and white and neither do I. I even sometime use mine as a guide or advisor in certain situations/=
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Date: 2010-10-22 11:59 am (UTC)It's your journal. ♥
I find it silly to view the world and its inhabitants in dichotomous terms of pure good and pure evil. The world is far more complex than that.
I've always been fond of yin-yang for this reason, as well.
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Date: 2010-10-22 12:07 pm (UTC)I have another post in mind for another time (this one ran long as it is @_@) about moral ambiguity and the perception/illusion of 'good' and 'evil' in a less than binary world. I can't even say (or believe) that I am an inherently 'good' person - I don't believe that 'goodness' (or 'evilness' for that matter) are inherent properties at all. There's great scope for relativity and circumstance and opining.
I may as well just state that I believe law exists less to promote good and punish evil and more as simply a tool to prevent anarchy and contain the chaos that would be the natural result of lawless society. Good and evil are useless terms here.
Oh goodness I need sleep x.x;
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Date: 2010-10-22 01:37 pm (UTC)It seems like when I mentally refer to you as 'Tails' it's like I'm assuming the whole image of Tails as portrayed in media. But I don't. I don't even know how to explain exactly what I mean. It's just kind of what I see and feel at the most basic level. Jai is Tails is Miles is Jai. Even though you and Miles are different entities you are still part of one another. Not quite whole, but not separate either.
Good and evil, I think, were just created forever ago as nothing more than a way to tell the difference between characters in media. I hate the thought that the world is black and white, because it isn't. It prevents me from assuming things about people - even the ones that do what we'd see as horrible things. It's pathetic to me because it goes so far as that I actually feel horrible for killing a lot of the enemies in video games. I even think that some of the most horrible people in this world are doing it for reasons they believe are just and correct, so I can never completely blame them and I feel horrible when someone does. (longest sentence ever)
And I also think you are right, that it exists "as simply a tool to prevent anarchy and contain the chaos that would be the natural result of a lawless society".
I still feel weird referring to myself as 'Maria' so I don't really do it consciously. I'd think I'm insane too, although I don't FEEL insane. I can't be completely like Maria, but I can't imagine her as flat like the media portrayed her. I felt she had a wild streak, even though it was very small. Not that she was 'bad' in any way - she just liked to have fun and mess with people. Trying to be exactly like her is excrutiatingly difficult and I don't expect to have to do so. Hell, it doesn't even show up in my daily life. I just do what I feel I have to do. So while I feel Maria has influenced a lot of my beliefs, I don't feel like I'm a carbon copy of whoever I was in another life. I still feel like 'me', just the result of everything I've been and seen from other lives.
I'd love to read the entry about moral ambiguity! That subject is quite the fun one. :3
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Date: 2010-10-22 01:53 pm (UTC)I'm glad you can see where Miles fits into the equation too. It's taking me a long time to figure him out (and of course he doesn't make it easy), but I'm getting there. I think.
I think that when it comes down to it, terms like 'good' and 'evil' are just labels that help us (generic 'us') to process and respond to things, but they are entirely subjective. I really do wanna write that post, and I'm glad you wanna read it (:
Truth be told, I do think of you as 'Maria' even though I, too, logically know that you've grown, changed and adapted in many ways throughout this life. A big part of it is because she IS part of you and it's sometimes obvious in your posts even if you're not trying. But also I think there's a (selfish?) little part of me that finds familiarity in the fact that you're Sonic'verse 'kin, even if you're not from the same exact place as me. But I know you're more than a 2D 'character'... and I'd kinda like to know more about what you were like and what you did/experienced in that lifetime (or what you remember/know about it). I know it's not necessarily the easiest thing to talk about though... past-life memory is, at least in my experience, a little more hazy than present-life memories ^^;
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Date: 2010-10-22 01:38 pm (UTC)But even though I'm trying to better myself, I still have a hard time seeing things in terms of dual morality. I don't think it's that I can't see the shades of grey, but that it all just blurs into a single shade of gray at any moment in time for me. I have to really try to see the 'specks' that you're talking about.
But having it explained like this, I can get it. I think it's good to accept that Miles is there, what he is to you, and to not look at it so negatively. We can't depend on others to always protect us. We need that smidgen of 'darkness' to call on whenever we're in trouble.
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Date: 2010-10-22 02:01 pm (UTC)Gosh, I don't even fucking know. Maybe when there's too many shades of grey they DO all just blur into one single shade. There's no right or wrong way to look at it I guess (or maybe there IS, dun dun DUN!). I don't expect everyone to think like me - that would be horrible, lol! But it means a lot that you understand the way I see things (:
Hah. Funnily enough, Miles has actually bailed me out a few times. He might actually make me a better person if he doesn't kill me first.
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Date: 2010-10-22 05:49 pm (UTC)And, you know, there's pros and cons to both of those viewpoints. It's just... different ways. Like you said, not everybody thinks the same.
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Date: 2010-10-22 05:55 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2010-10-22 05:59 pm (UTC)"i agree and have nothing more to add"
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Date: 2010-10-22 06:03 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2010-10-22 07:59 pm (UTC)Everything you said from here to the end of your post, I just want to give a big THIS or DITTO and just say that I agree with it, really agree with it. I think it's amazing that you and your Sonic get to be together again, and things like that help keep me optimistic that I'll be able to find some of my friends here, and not just as soulbonds. Even if they didn't know who they used to be.
I also agree with the duality, of course, and the lack of simplicity and false absolutes, but I wanted to talk mostly about the first part.
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Date: 2010-10-22 10:07 pm (UTC)I wish you the best of luck.
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Date: 2010-10-22 11:34 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2010-10-22 11:37 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2010-10-23 11:45 am (UTC)Yin and Yang have always been very important to you, and to me as well. I think there's something in that.
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Date: 2010-10-24 10:04 am (UTC)I'm glad the Yin Yang is meaningful to you too. It's a really interesting and cool concept and the Taijitu is a beautiful symbol, I think n.n