~We can make it if we all stick together, we won't give up not ever~

[flyboy_fox]

There's always going to be some people who will insist that Jei and I were 'trolling' from_fiction and that we both deserved to get kicked out. I don't know why I'm still sore over it; it's the past, it's not important, and the words of strangers shouldn't matter to me. The fact that the people in that community who knew me outside of it stood up for me is enough, and I did make things worse for myself in a lot of ways. I'm far from blameless and I really need to learn to have a thicker skin over these things. I've always been ridiculously over-sensitive and defensive, one of my greater faults.

Anyway.

This was all more than two years ago. After Jei and I were booted, I made a small effort to establish myself elsewhere (such as Mordax's 'From Fiction' message board), which went okay for a while. But I got extremely disillusioned with 'specialized' communities in general, and after a few months I just thought 'screw it' and pulled myself out of all the fic'kin communities I was in. I didn't make a dramatic thing of it. No huffy goodbyes or anything like that. Just upped and left.

That was all a couple of years ago. I've stayed out of those communities for a while now. But the friends I made while I was IN those communities are some of the best and most enduring friends I have on LiveJournal. I miss being part of those groups. Sure, I don't always see eye-to-eye with everybody (who does??), but I did enjoy being a part of it. We had some really interesting discussions!

So I decided to go back to one of the other fic'kin communities that I used to be a member of a while back. embodied_past. As far as I can remember, I didn't get myself into any trouble there and only left because I was doing a big fic'kin purge. It might even have been around the time that I did that whole "I'm not fic'kin, I denounce everything!" emo-angst thing that I remember pissed off a whole lot of people who knew me better than that XD; So hopefully this time around will go a little better.

I've already added a couple of new friends from there. The place seems open, friendly, and best of all... actually active!

This doesn't mean I'm suddenly gonna start writing a whole load of fic'kin related posts or anything. I've never really done that and probably never will. You'll still get the occasional one though. I would like to write more about personal fandom-related things that matter to me. If I do, I'll probably cut them. I might even set up that 'Encrypted' custom friends group for fic'kin friends and anyone else who cares.

Yeah, this is no great epiphany or anything. But it feels like it's important nevertheless.

(Also, I think I might make a post later about fic'kin related 'issues', including a couple of the supposedly controversial things that Jei and I talked about in that comm, because I don't like how there are just some things that you don't talk about in fic'kin communities. It might be a good way of closing that chapter - or potentially alienating new friends x.x We'll see. I think I'm more open-minded now than I was back then. I hope other fic'kin are too ^^)

Comments

[rblake77.livejournal.com]

Off-topic, but I love your icon.

[flyboy-fox.livejournal.com]

Thanks XD I made it like 5 mins before I made this post. Just 'cause I was in an icon-making mood ♥

[rblake77.livejournal.com]

Heh... nice.

[eclective.livejournal.com]

because I don't like how there are just some things that you don't talk about in fic'kin communities.

oh god oh god TALK TO MEEEE.

Ahem. Which is to say, rather, that oh freaking gods I have this frustration too. Not just with fic'kin, but... with otherkin, with just about any alternate way of looking at things, there are some things you just Can't Say, even for the purposes of purely exploring the concept, without people recoiling. Even if they feel, to me, like fairly normal things to ask and question about.

And it frustrates me that these communities that are out there on the fringe are so damn insular, when it comes to exploring and questioning and actually trying to suss out the boundaries and workings of what they've experienced. They latch onto a common idea of what it's about that's no less speculative than anyone else's, and woe betide anyone who goes "hey, what about this?" It's bizarre, how hidebound these groups are, given what they discuss.

I'd be really curious to see what they thought was "controversial". As someone who really looks at kin'ness through a nonstandard lens anyway, I'm sure I'd have more in common with someone who at least wants to explore the concepts in interesting ways.

[flyboy-fox.livejournal.com]

I think the problem with me, the thing that people in these communities don't like about me, is that I'm a scientist. What I mean by that is that I question things and I like to know how things work. Admittedly, that can make me a bit of a buzzkill, but I believe that open-mindedness goes both ways. Open to fantastical beliefs and ideas and theories, but also open to the counter-arguments against such 'flights of fancy'.

One thing I've always been open about with my fic'kin beliefs is the Possibility That I Could Be Wrong. I have said openly that I am perfectly aware that my past-life 'memories' and feelings could very easily be faux memories and creations of my own subconscious mind. I've sited experiments in which people have been led to create false memories after being provided with the visual hints and tools to do so. I've stated my genuine concerns about mass hysterical beliefs such as Otakukin Armageddon. I'm not afraid to say these things and I feel they should be open for discussion and - dare I say it - debate.

HOWEVER, I am also a very strong advocate of Does It Really Matter If It's Scientifically Real? The thought that it could all be in my head doesn't bother me. It makes me curious, because I do love a good How Awesome Are Our Minds bit of food-for-thought. But it doesn't kill the joy of fantastical beliefs for me. If it makes me happy and doesn't affect my health or anyone else's health or happiness, then does it really matter?

But some people are incredibly defensive and will bite your head off if you so much as dare to suggest that everything they believe could possibly not be 100% literally and tangibly real. Oh the debates/arguments I've had over Astral Projection, for example. Thing is, I love debate. But to question anything in these communities is tantamount to trolling. Epic trolling even. Sigh.

Another thing I've brought up before is my objection to those who hate this planet, this world, on account of it not being 'home'. Those who would give up all the friends and family they have here in a heartbeat if they could go 'home', and wouldn't even take the time to say goodbye. Those who call this world just a 'bus station', and call it ugly and hateful for not being perfect (even if they claim to come from wartorn worlds themselves). And especially those who hate our planet simply because we don't have magical powers here.

I admit I've been angry about it but I've always tried to stay civil. Walk-ins are a little more forgiveable, especially if new. But if you've lived here your whole life, had friends and family, grown up in this world - give this world some credit. It's not perfect, but I don't believe it deserves to be written off and snubbed just for not being the place you'd rather be right now.

I love Earth. I think this planet is beautiful and complex and has SO much potential. I got incredibly upset when one 'kin told me that they couldn't have any sort of future or happiness here because this world was so mundane, boring and restrictive. It's attitudes like that that made me question whether some people really do cling to 'kin beliefs simply to escape the real or perceived monotony of their own human lives.

And then I got jaded and gave up on 'kin communities. Maybe it's naive of me or wishful thinking, but I just want to be real about fantasy, if that makes any sense. How can any of us expect any different from the laughter and abuse we get if we refuse to look at how crazy our own beliefs are and at least talk about it without getting all defensive and angry and shutting ourselves off from the actual real world we live in?

And oops. I was going to make an LJ post but it seems I've spilled my guts out right here O.o

Forgive any typoes, I just sliced my finger open in a kitchen accident. XD Also, 1/2.

[eclective.livejournal.com]

But some people are incredibly defensive and will bite your head off if you so much as dare to suggest that everything they believe could possibly not be 100% literally and tangibly real.

Oh sigh. Yeah. I mean, I can understand if you are taking someone's cherished experience and getting all "eh, I don't think that could really happen. Are you sure?" about it -- I mean, one thing I find frustrating about 'kin communities from the opposite direction is that people will recount experiences that clearly have a lot of meaning to them, whether they Physically Happened or not, and people will get very "yeah, right, whatever *eyeroll*" about it, and that can be frustrating if that's the only place you feel like you can share the meaningful things.

But not being able to debate the possibility academically? Again, I can understand not wanting to, but even if I felt uncomfortable, I'd say something like, "It's a plausible theory, but unfortunately it's not something I can debate at this time for the sake of my own stability". Not "omg how dare you!!1eleventy", unless the person was being rude and caustic about it. And definitely, if the theory is just being brought up in the abstract... it's just another theory. And we should be open to theories.

I find tha one big problem with the 'kin community is... we don't talk. There's no reasonable dialogue between people who look at it one way and people who look at it another way. No one says, "I respect your opinion - it's emotionally hard for me to think of it that way right now, but it's possible you are right". And I think that even if it's hard for you to think about, it's something you should try to be strong enough to soulsearch about, at some point in the future - "I can't look at this now, but for the sake of honesty I'll make myself someone who can explore it". But people don't do that.

(I think on this topic, I feel similar-but-different to you. I tend to think that if we think this way, then it's not wholly baseless; which doesn't mean we necessarily Are the spirits of reincarnated whatevers, and I'm moving further away from such a literal belief over time, but it's not simply psychological trickery, either. I think what I believe basically falls under "those who long for something do not feel a longing without cause", and by "cause" I mean something substantial and meaningful enough to justify having spent your whole life longing for it - I don't believe the strongest guiding pull inside my whole self leads nowhere - but I am open to much speculation about what we're being pulled to, and it may or may not be anything so specific as these forms we look to, which may well just be convenient shapes on which to hang something ineffable.)

[eclective.livejournal.com]

As for hating a place because it's not "home", I agree and disagree. I think there's a lot of Earth-bashing that comes from cynicism and refusing to look at what's around you. There's a lot of posturing and "I am too good for this sinful woooooorld" that's just immature and un-thought-through. But there are some people who are really, genuinely so deeply wired for magic that no matter what they look to in this world, what scientific or natural or fictional wonders they set their eyes upon, no matter what they do to try and be okay where they are, they can be... happy, but not content.

That's the situation with someone I know, actually. For a long time they were very atheistic and denied that they believed in anything or wanted magical things to be true, but it was only because, after many, many, many years of wanting (I'm not talking about someone in their teenage years) and of trying to be happy despite the wanting, the only way they could numb out that constant nagging was to go "sour grapes": "it's not that big of a deal! I didn't want it anyway!" And yet they were still profoundly miserable - until they accepted the possibility that it was real and they could have it someday. They had tried absolutely everything to be happy with the world as it was, because they didn't want to be miserable and they wanted to love life, but it was as futile as saying to someone who's a music-lover in their soul, "there's so much else in the world to love, it doesn't matter if we make you deaf!" There is just no replacement for it sometimes, no matter how you try and try.

And yes, it's sad to see that be true of someone - but I don't think it makes it any less true, nor does it make it something you can fix with a perspective shift. In this case, the absolute only perspective shift that worked for this person was to believe in it - and that really did turn them around from "depressed, struggling person" into someone full of life and vitality. So I can certainly understand feeling like, "gah! You're missing what's right in front of your eyes!", but you have to realise that some people have really, really tried to appreciate that and still found they want something else.

(And that's evidence, for me. I don't think we'd long for something completely non-existent in such a life-defining way.)

But! Despite that we don't agree on everything, I'm perfectly capable of having a civil discussion with you. And I'm enjoying it, in fact. I do wish the community could just... talk about this. Present their theories, and argue them reasonably, rather than slamming down on you for daring to have a different viewpoint.

I definitely agree that we shouldn't buy into every woo-woo apocalyptic belief that wanders along, just as I think we shouldn't slam the door on them. I'm actually more interested in the meta-question: why? I don't think an Otakukin Armageddon (wtf?) is at all likely, but I also want to know why people believe that. There's highly unlikely to be any kind of real war going on, but if people are craving radical change (and always have been - doesn't sound too different from Christian "Rapture" theories to me, and those have been going for thousands of years), it might be a sign of a spiritual need. It's not that anything's going to happen, but that we want it to says something.

[flyboy-fox.livejournal.com]

I had a feeling you'd write a lot and put my 'long' reply to shame ;) I get good mileage out of you! Hee. I do enjoy our discussions and I don't mind at all if we don't see exactly eye-to-eye on everything. I think it's more interesting that way!

I'd never outright tell anyone that I thought their beliefs or feelings were nonsense or not real. It's not for me to say, and it's not something I can know. I only want to put the question out there because it interests me and I love psychology and theory of mind and all of that fun stuff.

Having said that, if someone made a post where they poured their heart out about meaningful things to them, of course I would never leap in there and start ripping apart their theory. It's not the place. I'd rather make my own topic where I ask these questions, and only those people who feel comfortable need take part. I don't think I should be chased out of town just for asking the questions though.

As for the whole hating-on-the-world thing - I totally get that for some people there are things missing in this life. I've felt it myself. That's why someone as scared of pain and as non-radical as me has a giant twin-tail tattoo on my back XD;;

I'd never want to stop anyone from believing in what they believe in and/or hoping for a return to it some day. I just hate when certain 'kin say that there is nothing redeemable about this world and, worse, when they say that 'humans' are stupid worthless creatures. I think this one upsets me most of all. Humans are amazing and complex beings and I can't stand when 'kin (fic'kin and otherkin) seem to feel a superiority above 'common man'. In fact, I've heard non-kin humans referred to as 'mundanes' and I almost spat blood.

I suppose part of that is because I see myself as essentially simply human in this life, whatever came before. But even if I didn't (and there have been times), I still respect this world and its people as being something which is just as rich and important in the universe as any other world and peoples.

bwah, character limit

[eclective.livejournal.com]

I get good mileage out of you!

I try! XD And yeah, you can't really learn from those who only want to corroborate your opinion. You need to listen to different sides of the argument, too. Which is why debate, discussion, and different ideas existing within the same community are healthy things, not problems.

(There are some communities for which that isn't the case, I suppose... like, I think it's vitally important that we listen to criminals and don't writ them off and hear why they did what they did, but a support group for the victims isn't the best place for that. But 'kin aren't victims, and I'm disappointed that more of them don't feel the desire to be philosophers, considering their unique condition - and the fact that, no matter what the explanation for it is, that explanation says an awful lot about the world.)

Having said that, if someone made a post where they poured their heart out about meaningful things to them, of course I would never leap in there and start ripping apart their theory. It's not the place. I'd rather make my own topic where I ask these questions, and only those people who feel comfortable need take part.

Then... I absolutely do not see the issue. I agree with you wholeheartedly: these things should be discussed. And if they're giving certain people trouble, then those certain people, by all means, can splinter into a community that's more support-group-y and protective, but... the main discussion communities shouldn't be like that.

Intelligent inquiry should never be stifled. If we stop thinking and examining and questioning, we stop growing. And as a spiritual person, I think our growing is a vital thing, and it's important not to get stuck in a rut in terms of what you believe, never looking out beyond the parapets because you think you've found it all. There's always more to know.

I think this one upsets me most of all. Humans are amazing and complex beings and I can't stand when 'kin (fic'kin and otherkin) seem to feel a superiority above 'common man'. In fact, I've heard non-kin humans referred to as 'mundanes' and I almost spat blood.

I hear you there. I think we're all on the same evolutionary track, ultimately: one of my odder (or at least less normative) 'kin beliefs is that 'kinness is not so much something that arises in individual people who have lost their home, so much as it's a manifestation in some people of a "home" state we're all searching for - whether that's another world, a new evolution of humankind, an afterlife, or a paradise here in this world, who knows? And so I'm not really sure there are "'kin" and "non-'kin" so much as there are "people who find 'kinness speaks to them as a way of describing this 'home' feeling, and people who don't feel it or don't see it in that way". I think the feeling, the deeper thing that 'kinness is "about" is something that could speak to more people, if 'kin weren't so rigid about drawing lines and deciding who "counts" and who doesn't.

[eclective.livejournal.com]

I think a lot of the "grawr, I hate humans" posturing comes about when people are young and ill-at-ease with the world and want a way to separate themselves from the people around them who don't seem to care, who mock them for being what thy are, etc. But it's an unfair judgment on all of humanity. It seems like a way of dealing with the fact that because they have a weird belief, they feel outcast; and they might also be coming to new realisations along with their 'kin awakening, such as feeling more environmentally conscious, and the fact that humans have been so destructive in that regard makes them want to distance themselves from them. But... the more I think about it, I do think being 'kin is a human thing. Or maybe being human is a 'kin thing. In that the lowliest and scummiest human in the world is still... part of something grand and transformative that we'll someday understand, and that those of us who are 'kin feel as a calling to another species, world or time. In some ways, to be 'kin could be seen as an acknowledgement that, though we are human, we're not only human: we're capable of being, have been, will be, anything and everything. And by "we" I mean "humans in general".

That said, I don't instinctively flinch at "mundane"; I think it depends on how it's used. I've heard it used as practically an insult: "you mundanes couldn't understand". And then I've heard it simply used descriptively: "when talking to mundanes about your 'kin nature, you might want to remember...". In the latter case, I see it more as an acknowledgment that there are people with their heads wholly outside this life, who don't generally look at or consider things from a spiritual or other-worldly perspective, and who can be difficult to share these things with because they don't feel the callings you feel. In this circumstance, I don't see it as a distinction between 'kin and non-'kin so much as between "people who get it" and "people who live outside this world and aren't likely to"; I think of mundane as an antonym for magical, describing people who keep their minds mostly on practical, mundane, down-to-earth matters rather than people who have an inherently magical, or spiritual lens through which they see the world.

But, granted, that's not the way a lot of people use it. Like I said, for me I think it really depends on context. (I've seen, for example, "freak the mundanes" used a term referring to jolting people out of their dull daily grind and making them think about something more magical, when it comes to things like glamourbombing. In that usage, it really just means someone who is thinking mundanely.)

[ladymoonjava.livejournal.com]

Eh, unfortunately sometimes you have to be careful in groups like otherkin and otakukin. I understand why people need labels but man it drives me crazy myself. I try to learn such things as "soulbounders" and etc, if people need the words to make themselves feel better. I am also a pagan/spiritual hippie chick however, I know how important science is. I think it's perfectly healthy to have a good blend of both things in your life, if you can handle it I mean. That being said I think it's also important to see other people's view points as much as you can as well. Again, I just have a hard time calling myself "kin". I have a few "kin" friends and there cool-one of who I've known for several years and she's helped me through allot.
It just depends on how you really look at things. I think if you have a healthy out look and just don't drive your self crazy with questions and don't become some kind of murder , or something like that, it's all good. However, sometimes It doesn't matter what kind of "group" your in. Someone is gonna get mad if you question how they look at things, it'll tick someone off.

[violettsukino.livejournal.com]

I used to be really worried about being what I considered to a "bad" kin. Wanting to get away from this world so much that I became out of touch with reality, thinking that I was so special that I began looking down on other people.

So, I wound up "trolling" myself for a while. Sometimes it wasn't a directly conscious thing, sometimes I trained myself to engage in a kind of double think that would allow me to tell myself that I believed this stuff when in the back of my mind I was still trying my hardest to screw up bad enough that I would believing in this "crap" altogether. You may remember the time I edited myself on Encyclopedia Dramatica, or all the "Bimbo Blaze" junk that I pulled on "The Dressing Zone."

...This backfired horribly after a while. The kin stuff in my head never went away, no matter how hard I tried to make it. Not only did I wind up failing to "exorcise" myself of my kin-ness, I wound up acting more like those "bad kin" the more I tried to convince myself that my kin-ness was stupid...I looked down on people, was self-righteous, was a jerk, started become so self-absorbed that I became out of touch with reality.

As for where I'm at now...I've learned to just accept the kin side of myself, even though I can't prove it scientifically, even though it still sounds logically unsound, even to me. The thing is, I've realized that the point of it isn't getting people to believe me...It's about living my identity. It doesn't matter how many people believe that I am Princess Blaze, Guardian of the Sol Emeralds, as long as I myself remember the kind of responsibility that entails, both towards myself and other people, and try to live that as best I can.

I really can't look down on other people as "mundanes", because well...I don't want to be the only one who's special. As the saying goes, "It's lonely at the top." I want everyone to be special, even if that sounds like an oxymoron. I dream of a day when all sentient beings can exist together without hate or strife, as an extended family. I just figure that the first step to helping everyone else change, is trying to improve myself.