My bad, guys.
Mar. 24th, 2010 04:54 pm![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
flyboy_foxOkay, I am extracting my post from the previous shit-storm and starting over. This was my post before I freaked out and fagged it up:
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It occurred to me - he left a note. He left a note, therefore he must have EXPECTED and COUNTED on someone finding his body. What kind of place was he in where he thought it was okay to abandon ship and leave his (potentially) rotting corpse for a friend or neighbour to find?? He knew very well that it could have been Jill or Dave... or my mum. We were his neighbours and probably his only friends in the immediate area. What if instead of calling the police (or if they'd refused to come check), my mum and her neighbours had decided to go in there themselves to check on him? After last time when he was found half-dead after being missing for days, who could blame them? Fortunately for them, the police made the discovery - but how horrible for them! Sure, I expect they're trained to expect the worst, but still... ugh. How terrible! Bruce was depressed and lonely - he must have guessed, or even anticipated!, that his body wouldn't be found for days, maybe even weeks, after his death. Yet he left a note, so he did expect to be found. My mum could have found that body. As it is, she almost feels like she did, as she called the police who went in and found him as she watched from outside.
I've spent the past day feeling sad for Bruce. I still do, but I also feel FUCKING ANGRY. How dare you do that to your neighbours and friends, Bruce? How dare you run away and leave them with this trauma?
I wanna go home to my mum. I hope she's okay. I feel sick.
Edit:
http://www.thewestonmercury.co.uk/content/twm/news/story.aspx?brand=Westonmercury&category=news&tBrand=westonmercury&tCategory=znews&itemid=WeED14+Jan+2010+09%3A48%3A19%3A223
Second picture down. Bruce and (neighbour) Dave in the local paper with other Bleadon-ites... only January this year? huh...
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This is a reply I got from a friend (and yes I overreacted):
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"When pain consumes you like that, you're not thinking about anyone else. It's really easy to think compassionately about the man's family and about your neighbours and your mum, from the position of someone whose thoughts are not completely consumed with a desperate ache for release from the world; you're not being gnawed on with a constant drumbeat of "I want to die". When you are, it's like being water-tortured. You'd do anything to escape. And a note, generally, is some way of feeling like you were able to cry out one last thing to the world as you went under.
This man wasn't thinking straight. He likely could not get out of the house, at the time he decided. all his thoughts were focused on escape. As horrible and traumatic as it is for the people around him to have endured that... you really can't blame the guy. He had to have been in terrible, terrible pain, the kind where thinking about how upset someone else might be to find you doesn't even compare."
---
And this is my new non-butthurt reply, now that I've taken a few deep breaths and stopped being a drama queen:
I'm really sorry for getting pissed at you. That was my own immature reaction to feeling attacked for daring to feel angry.
However, yes I can. I can blame him. People are responsible for their actions, and when those actions hurt other people, the blame is their own. That doesn't mean I don't feel sorry for him - you only have to look at my previous posts to see how sad I am for him. However, he is dead and people I love are alive and hurting. My mum was in tears on the phone today, feeling like it's her fault he's dead because she didn't visit him often enough. I don't feel that it's malicious or uncaring or me to feel anger that he inflicted that on her.
Bruce was an alcoholic. His drinking drove his wife and children away. I know I can drink too much sometimes, and people have called me out on it even here on LJ. If I continued to drink, made myself really ill, drove away all I loved, then killed myself because I was slowly dying anyway and had nothing left... yes, it would be sad, but heck! People would be perfectly within their rights to feel angry at me even if they were also sad.
Suicide is, by its intrinsic nature, a selfish act - that does NOT mean that I have no sympathy for those who are driven to it. Simply that it is an act to stop one's own suffering over anything else. And heck, if I was suffering that badly then I might do it too. But people would have every right to feel angry at me for hurting them. They'd be completely correct in blaming me for my actions, for it would be by my own hand.
I'm sorry that Bruce suffered like that, but I'm not sorry for being angry or for placing a degree of blame on him for getting himself into that state through drinking and driving his family away.
addendum: Jei said (in the same previous fail-post of mine):
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"I don't think you needed to cross all of that out. I totally agree. I'm of the mindset that suicide, in many cases, is a very selfish act. Yes, the person must be in mental turmoil to actually take their lives and that's a horrible thought, but in many cases, the person fails to see the world outside of themselves, and ultimately punishes those left behind more.
Bruce may have been at the end of his rope, but he certainly had more than a lot of people. He had neighbors and locals who cared... who made constant efforts to check on him and keep him in good health. He certainly couldn't say he had nothing to live for, and if he felt he was being a burden, he certainly didn't help matters by ending things that way. Who did he hope to find him? The very same people who went out of their way to help him.
I've seen first hand how sad you are over this and I know how it's affecting your mom... there is no reason why you can't be angry as well as sorrowful because suicide IS a selfish act. Being angry doesn't mean you don't feel horrible and guilty and wish you'd done more... it's all part of grieving, isn't it? Totally natural in my opinion. "
---
I basically feel this way right now. Bruce had friends and neighbours who bent over backwards for him. Visited him in hospital, took turns visiting him and trying to get him out of his house, did his shopping for him when he was too ill... By refusing to even go back to hospital or get proper care, he continued to rely on them to look after him and watch his painful decline. And what then? They'd nurse him to semi-health only to find him back in the pub days later on his arse again.
Yes, he had a problem, a serious problem. But he knew that - he admitted it. He simply refused to seek help or even take any when given to him. It's so very sad, but I do not see how he can't be blamed for his part in it and for inflicting this slow macabre death on his friends and neighbours over the past year.
So please, do not tell me I cannot blame him (and therefore insinuate that I have no right to anger). This is a natural outlet, isn't it? I handled it badly, yes, but I do not feel my anger should be invalidated simply because suicide victims must be blameless as a result of their obvious pain.
I apologise for my epic rage-fail previously. I did not have "maturity in grief" and I will own up to that right now. Sorry.
---
It occurred to me - he left a note. He left a note, therefore he must have EXPECTED and COUNTED on someone finding his body. What kind of place was he in where he thought it was okay to abandon ship and leave his (potentially) rotting corpse for a friend or neighbour to find?? He knew very well that it could have been Jill or Dave... or my mum. We were his neighbours and probably his only friends in the immediate area. What if instead of calling the police (or if they'd refused to come check), my mum and her neighbours had decided to go in there themselves to check on him? After last time when he was found half-dead after being missing for days, who could blame them? Fortunately for them, the police made the discovery - but how horrible for them! Sure, I expect they're trained to expect the worst, but still... ugh. How terrible! Bruce was depressed and lonely - he must have guessed, or even anticipated!, that his body wouldn't be found for days, maybe even weeks, after his death. Yet he left a note, so he did expect to be found. My mum could have found that body. As it is, she almost feels like she did, as she called the police who went in and found him as she watched from outside.
I've spent the past day feeling sad for Bruce. I still do, but I also feel FUCKING ANGRY. How dare you do that to your neighbours and friends, Bruce? How dare you run away and leave them with this trauma?
I wanna go home to my mum. I hope she's okay. I feel sick.
Edit:
http://www.thewestonmercury.co.uk/conte
Second picture down. Bruce and (neighbour) Dave in the local paper with other Bleadon-ites... only January this year? huh...
---
This is a reply I got from a friend (and yes I overreacted):
---
"When pain consumes you like that, you're not thinking about anyone else. It's really easy to think compassionately about the man's family and about your neighbours and your mum, from the position of someone whose thoughts are not completely consumed with a desperate ache for release from the world; you're not being gnawed on with a constant drumbeat of "I want to die". When you are, it's like being water-tortured. You'd do anything to escape. And a note, generally, is some way of feeling like you were able to cry out one last thing to the world as you went under.
This man wasn't thinking straight. He likely could not get out of the house, at the time he decided. all his thoughts were focused on escape. As horrible and traumatic as it is for the people around him to have endured that... you really can't blame the guy. He had to have been in terrible, terrible pain, the kind where thinking about how upset someone else might be to find you doesn't even compare."
---
And this is my new non-butthurt reply, now that I've taken a few deep breaths and stopped being a drama queen:
I'm really sorry for getting pissed at you. That was my own immature reaction to feeling attacked for daring to feel angry.
However, yes I can. I can blame him. People are responsible for their actions, and when those actions hurt other people, the blame is their own. That doesn't mean I don't feel sorry for him - you only have to look at my previous posts to see how sad I am for him. However, he is dead and people I love are alive and hurting. My mum was in tears on the phone today, feeling like it's her fault he's dead because she didn't visit him often enough. I don't feel that it's malicious or uncaring or me to feel anger that he inflicted that on her.
Bruce was an alcoholic. His drinking drove his wife and children away. I know I can drink too much sometimes, and people have called me out on it even here on LJ. If I continued to drink, made myself really ill, drove away all I loved, then killed myself because I was slowly dying anyway and had nothing left... yes, it would be sad, but heck! People would be perfectly within their rights to feel angry at me even if they were also sad.
Suicide is, by its intrinsic nature, a selfish act - that does NOT mean that I have no sympathy for those who are driven to it. Simply that it is an act to stop one's own suffering over anything else. And heck, if I was suffering that badly then I might do it too. But people would have every right to feel angry at me for hurting them. They'd be completely correct in blaming me for my actions, for it would be by my own hand.
I'm sorry that Bruce suffered like that, but I'm not sorry for being angry or for placing a degree of blame on him for getting himself into that state through drinking and driving his family away.
addendum: Jei said (in the same previous fail-post of mine):
---
"I don't think you needed to cross all of that out. I totally agree. I'm of the mindset that suicide, in many cases, is a very selfish act. Yes, the person must be in mental turmoil to actually take their lives and that's a horrible thought, but in many cases, the person fails to see the world outside of themselves, and ultimately punishes those left behind more.
Bruce may have been at the end of his rope, but he certainly had more than a lot of people. He had neighbors and locals who cared... who made constant efforts to check on him and keep him in good health. He certainly couldn't say he had nothing to live for, and if he felt he was being a burden, he certainly didn't help matters by ending things that way. Who did he hope to find him? The very same people who went out of their way to help him.
I've seen first hand how sad you are over this and I know how it's affecting your mom... there is no reason why you can't be angry as well as sorrowful because suicide IS a selfish act. Being angry doesn't mean you don't feel horrible and guilty and wish you'd done more... it's all part of grieving, isn't it? Totally natural in my opinion. "
---
I basically feel this way right now. Bruce had friends and neighbours who bent over backwards for him. Visited him in hospital, took turns visiting him and trying to get him out of his house, did his shopping for him when he was too ill... By refusing to even go back to hospital or get proper care, he continued to rely on them to look after him and watch his painful decline. And what then? They'd nurse him to semi-health only to find him back in the pub days later on his arse again.
Yes, he had a problem, a serious problem. But he knew that - he admitted it. He simply refused to seek help or even take any when given to him. It's so very sad, but I do not see how he can't be blamed for his part in it and for inflicting this slow macabre death on his friends and neighbours over the past year.
So please, do not tell me I cannot blame him (and therefore insinuate that I have no right to anger). This is a natural outlet, isn't it? I handled it badly, yes, but I do not feel my anger should be invalidated simply because suicide victims must be blameless as a result of their obvious pain.
I apologise for my epic rage-fail previously. I did not have "maturity in grief" and I will own up to that right now. Sorry.
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Date: 2010-03-24 05:35 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2010-03-24 05:39 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2010-03-24 05:42 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2010-03-24 05:45 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2010-03-24 05:55 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2010-03-24 06:34 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2010-03-24 08:26 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2010-03-25 12:03 am (UTC)At this point, I feel comfortable sharing a few thoughts. I'm not sure if they'll be useful, but I'll give it a shot.
I'm not sure how I feel about the morality of suicide, since I'm not sure about how I feel about morality in general, these days. I will admit that, in Bruce's case, he did terrible things to the people around him, intentionally or not.
In light of that, my issue at the moment is not with people who say that suicide is a selfish act, but with people who say that people who commit suicide should be thrust into eternal suffering, as some sort of ironic punishment. As someone who grew up a paranoid Roman Catholic who was deathly afraid of being dumped in a furnace forever, I don't feel that anyone should suffer forever. I might wish that sort of thing upon a person if I were in state of heavy torture, but that would be a purely emotional response, not a conclusion I would reach logically.
You do seem understandably angry, and maybe you might want justice/revenge/something similar in some sense. But on the other hand, you've made it clear that however angry you are at this man, you don't want him eternally damned. I'm somewhat hesitant to say "I'm proud of you," because I don't want to say it in a way that sounds insincere and backhanded. But I am genuinely proud of you for not wishing that sort of pain on the man, whatever else you may feel he deserves at this time.
...I talk a lot, it seems.
no subject
Date: 2010-03-25 12:44 pm (UTC)If I could speak to him now, I would probably shake his shoulders roughly and say "Why the HECK did you do this, Bruce? People cared about you and tried to help you and you PUSHED THEM AWAY! You have YOUNG DAUGHTERS who are in University and now have NO FATHER! How could you do that to them, or to your own parents who are still alive and have lost a son! What more could we have done for you to make you see that life was worth living?". I'd yell at him, sure, but that would be it. Sigh.
no subject
Date: 2010-03-26 01:55 am (UTC)I really appreciate that you've taken the time to further explain the way you feel to me, Jai. Sometimes I have trouble differentiating between frustration and hatred, and I feel like you've helped me grow a bit as a person.
Bringing this back to you...You honestly don't seem as angry as others may have thought you were. This seems like a mere coping mechanism as you look upon the survivors that Bruce left, want to help them, but find that you can't.
no subject
Date: 2010-03-27 01:25 pm (UTC)As for his children, and his wife, trust me, in death the constant oppression those loved ones felt is at least over, even if they were separated. I've lived with this for 25 years and watched seizure after seizure, panic attacks, angina, alcoholic cardiomyopathy. Whilst the transition is destabilising, those childrens new life can begin, without that sickening feeling of worry. You know the one, it starts in your seat and works its way up until you cannnot speak; the one that keeps you up at night and leaves you blearly eyed.
Your mother is a very caring lady, but she will know that he is sovereign over his body and no one can take responsibility for him or for his actions. Otherwise his illness will only bring us down, it may sound cavalier. It was put very succinctly to me once by a doctor: I'll phone you back in five years and see if you're still by his bed stroking his feet. You cannot take responsibility nor should we let them bring us down.
You do not know what to do or what to feel, so you feel angry. It is powerful response, fitting in severity for the situation, but you know it is non-commensurate. Yes, a draconian approach is better than one of regret but not so far as anger as that too is negative and will not help you. Perhaps the Al-Anon network might be helpful for you and your mother http://www.al-anonuk.org.uk/about Nothing in life prepares us. It is tragic.
When you feel angry, consider the absolute horror, and dread and loathing he felt for himself every moment of everday. Your humanity will lead you only to pity.
Consider, if you needed help, but you did not realise it or you were not strong enough to take it or you did not follow it through or you did not beleive the people who were telling you bluntly, you need help, even when at times yourself may have admitted it, should we be angry at you? It takes a brave person to question yourself and conclude you are at fault, in illness and sanity, seeking and receiving help, but unfortunately alcoholics are not those brave kinds of people.
You know pushing people away if what we do when we are that afraid of ourselves. The mind of the alcoholic is indeed complex. The Royal College of Psychiatrists has some excellent resources http://www.rcpsych.ac.uk/mentalhealthinfoforall/problems/
As from all experiences in life, I hope we derive all that we can and we move forward a better person for it.
no subject
Date: 2010-03-27 01:27 pm (UTC)